When should you use episode numbers with your podcast?
Thank you for joining me for The Audacity to Podcast.
I'm Daniel J. Lewis.
I have changed my mind since 12 years ago in episode 175 when I
proposed the episode numbers were unnecessary for most podcasts.
Now, however, I see more cases when you should consider using
episode numbers for your podcast. And it comes down to this.
Use episode numbers when they actually matter to your audience.
Specifically, I'll share with you how to determine when that
applies for your podcast episodes.
If you'd like to follow along in the notes for this episode, they
are a simple tap or swipe away or go to the
audacitytopodcast.com/when episode numbers.
Starting at number 1, use episode numbers for serial podcasts,
not just the podcast serial, although that is an example of this.
Think of podcasts where they need to be consumed in a particular
order. Episode 1, then episode 2, then episode 3.
This could be like chapters of a book.
This could be steps in a process.
This could be something chronological. It could be a story.
Anything where basically the audience needs to consume it in a
particular order.
They can't just jump around and cherry pick episodes or jump in
the middle of it.
They really need to start at number 1, then number 2, number 3,
and so on. That is perfect. That is a serial podcast.
And that's when you would want the episode numbers for your
audience to be able to know the correct order to consume the
episodes.
Because even though you can do things in podcast apps like define
something as a serial podcast, you can't assume that every
podcast app will interpret that correctly or even that everyone's
preferences will display the episodes in the correct order.
By default, podcast apps display episodes in the order that they
were published.
And most of the time, it seems that they display the latest
episode first.
But what if you really want people to listen to your first
episode first?
That's where episode numbers can really help with that.
And the episode numbers help people to know what order to consume
the episodes in, especially when those episode numbers are
prominent.
And that's what I do recommend is when the episode numbers matter
to your audience, make those episode numbers prominent, use them
in the title, even putting them at the beginning of the episode
title.
I know you can gasp if you've been following me for a while
because I recommended against that for years.
It's within the last few years that my mind has really changed on
this.
So when that episode number matters to your audience, make sure
it is displayed prominently.
And the ideal situation for when that matters is when your
episodes need to be consumed in a particular order.
Definitely use episode numbers for that.
Then number 2, and this is where my mind changed the most.
And this is where I'm going to spend the most time in this
episode because I want you to understand this and I want to
explain this thoroughly for you.
So number 2, use episode numbers if frequently referencing other
episodes.
My mind changed on this because of looking at how other people
use podcast apps and then critically looking at how I use a
podcast app And also thinking about things from the way that my
mind has changed and my perspective has changed about podcasting
from engaging in Podcasting 2.
Because when you look at Podcasting 2, we are trying to improve
what a podcast can be, what it can do, and what it can provide
primarily without leaving the podcast app.
Stuff like cross app comments, allowing you to comment on an
episode within the podcast app, and other people can read those
comments within their podcast apps, not having to go out
somewhere else to comment on the episode, but doing it right
there inside the podcast app.
The same thing, like, with the value tag, being able to give
value back to the podcaster right inside the podcast app,
accessing other metadata like the location, the credits for the
podcast, the people in the podcast, and much more all within the
podcast app and not having to leave the podcast app.
So now do a little thought exercise with me.
If I wanted you to go back and listen to my original episode
where I talked about episode numbers in your podcast, I think the
title of it was, do you really need episode numbers?
How would you find that episode?
I could tell you the URL, which is very easy for me to remember
because keyword based, that's why I presented back in that
episode.
I suggested that instead of using episode numbers because most of
the time that people were using episode numbers, it was to be
able to reference an episode URL.
They would say, like, the audacity to podcast.com/episodenumber
there.
But what I suggested in that episode was use keyword based URLs,
which I did for that episode and I've done for all the episodes
since then.
So I know, for example, I didn't even have to look this up.
I just typed it in because I knew this would work.
The audacitytopodcast.com/episodenumbers takes you to my episode
about episode numbers. Very meta. I know.
But I just gave you a URL.
And even if I hyperlinked that in the chapter or in the in the
notes for this episode and you tapped on that, where would that
URL take you?
It would take you to a browser and open up the web page for that
episode, potentially taking you out of the podcast app.
It might open up a miniature browser inside the podcast app, but
functionally, it's still detached from the podcast app experience
because you're no longer looking at the episode in a podcast app.
You're now looking at the web page for the episode.
So for you to listen to that episode means breaking that
experience that you're now detached from the podcast app that you
prefer using to listen to podcast episodes.
Now you have to listen in a different way because I've given you
a reference to an older episode that you might want to listen to.
So that is broken. It takes people out of the podcast apps.
They either have to remember the URL.
They have to rely on the link being there in the notes, being
able to access the notes or the chapters.
It depends on a lot of things and it doesn't really provide the
best experience, especially since it takes them outside the
podcast app.
Instead, you might think, well, you could search for the title
within the podcast app.
Some podcast apps let you search for the title of episodes.
For example, Apple Podcasts, you can search for the title of an
episode and it will search the entire Apple Podcast catalog for
the title of that episode.
You might have trouble then finding my episode that I want to
give you.
And then you have to make sure that you get the title really
correct.
And you don't mess up or you don't misplace a word or something
like that.
And that depends on the search engine optimization of the title
and such.
That starts to get complicated and it's not a pleasant
experience. And that's just in 1 particular app.
Overcast, for example, which is my current podcast app of choice
for listening to podcasts, does allow you to search for episodes
within a podcast you're already looking at.
So you could type in the episode title within your subscription
to The Audacity to Podcast, and it would take you to that
episode.
But then you still have to type the title correctly, and you have
to remember that title.
So that's not really the best way, especially since a lot of apps
don't have that kind of search.
So instead, if I gave you the name of the episode, I told you go
back and listen to my episode about episode numbers.
I gave you the exact title of the episode.
How would you find that in a list of all of my episodes?
Now more than 400 episodes. How would you find that?
You would have to scroll through and read at least to some level
the title of every single episode until you found that 1.
And along the way, you might even forget what you're looking for.
I say that because I've certainly done that.
I've been looking through a list of things, looking for
something. Okay. Where's that thing? Where's that thing?
What is that thing I'm even looking for? I forget now.
So I have to go back and find, oh, yeah.
That's what I was looking for. Okay. Where was I in the list?
See, it starts to get really complicated when you're using only
the title to refer back to other episodes.
So you would struggle then trying to read the titles of all of
the episodes.
And some podcast apps might even truncate the titles, making it
even harder, especially if a lot of the titles follow the same
pattern, like how to, how to, how to, how to.
Then you're seeing that take up characters in the title and maybe
the rest of the title is truncated, so it might start to get
difficult to find the actual episode that you're looking for.
This is the behavior I observed on other podcasters and on my own
use in Overcast, trying to find a particular older episode of
certain podcasts.
Consider instead if I gave you the episode number, which I said
in the beginning of this episode, episode number 175.
And imagine then if all the episodes in the list all are numbered
and display that number in the same visual location, and that's
done differently in different apps.
That could be part of the title.
It could be some of the metadata.
Like in Apple Podcast, if you use the episode tag, which is
technically iTunes colon episode tag, If you use that to put your
episode number in there, then that episode number will display in
a particular way inside of Apple Podcasts and also Pocket Casts
and maybe a couple of other apps here and there.
But the point is that it displays in the same visual location for
every episode. So it's a number, a sequential number.
And if all of the episodes display that number in the same place
for each episode, then it is very easy to scroll through and find
the exact episode you're looking for.
Like here I am more than 400 episodes.
I'm telling you, go back and listen to episode 175.
Then you start swiping back and you might get to 250 and then you
know, okay, I'm getting close. I'm about 75 away.
Then you swipe a little slower.
You get down to 200, 180, 176, and then you know, I'm almost
there. I'm hot. It's getting hotter. It's hotter, hotter.
There it is. It's right there.
You can very easily find it because you can, in a sense, how far
to go in order to get to that episode.
If you're looking at episode 1,000, you know you've got a long
ways to scroll to get to episode 175.
If you're then at episode 200, you know you have a very short way
to go to get to episode 175.
When the episode numbers are prominent and even front loaded, I
know, gasp at that if you want to.
But if the episode numbers are very prominently displayed and
I've given you an episode number in referencing another episode,
then it's so much easier to find that episode from the episode
number without leaving the podcast app. That's the big key.
Within Podcasting 2, there has been discussion about developing
another kind of cross linking technology that could link to other
podcasts or even episodes of other podcasts or the same podcast
where when you tap that link, whether it's from the show notes or
from the chapter, it would take you to that other podcast or even
the same podcast, but take you to that specific episode even
without leaving the podcast app. That is not currently possible.
Yes, it's possible if you're in Apple Podcasts and you've
provided an Apple Podcast link, or if you're in Spotify and
you've provided a Spotify link, but you can't do that kind of
smart detection for a link like that within a podcast app for the
notes and the chapters.
You're going to be linking people to a web page or to a podcast
listing in a different app.
Unfortunately, there is no current way to link to an episode
within the same podcast app.
So if you want to reference another episode in your podcast, you
can reference it by the episode number, and that's so much easier
for your audience to get to. And it's not only for past episodes.
It could be for upcoming episodes where you know what that
episode number will be.
For example, I know that my next episode is going to be when you
should not use episode numbers, and that's going to be episode
number 421.
So depending on whenever you're listening to this, you can very
easily find that episode, which at this time of recording is a
future episode, but it might not be a future episode by the time
you're listening to it.
But that doesn't matter because you could find that very quickly
in a list of numbers by scrolling to wherever 421 is.
For any episode number I give, it would be very easy and very
fast for you to find it in the list where the numbers are
displayed very prominently.
And here's the big, very important key without leaving the
Podcast app.
That is the biggest thing that's changed my mind is recognizing
how much the Podcast audiences want to stay inside their Podcast
app.
The developers want to keep them inside the app as well, and
that's the best experience. Provide it inside the podcast app.
My mindset has shifted on this primarily because of working in
podcasting 2, but also in seeing how other people are using
podcast apps and then critically looking at how am I doing this?
How am I finding old episodes?
Or if someone tells me, you gotta listen to the episode of this
podcast, how am I finding that specific episode?
If they know the episode number, that's great.
Makes it very fast to find it if the episode numbers are
prominent.
I've spent the most time on this because this is the biggest and
I think most important mindset shift when it comes to episode
numbers is recognizing what is the best way to make it easier for
your audience and so they don't have to leave the podcast app.
And until the smart linking feature comes out in Podcasting 2 and
until the podcast apps actually start supporting that kind of
smart linking feature, I think the best way to then reference
those other episodes is by the episode number.
If you don't frequently reference other episodes, then you don't
need those episode numbers displayed prominently, and you don't
need to speak them either.
But if you do a teaching podcast, it's very likely you need to
reference other lessons that you've taught.
And I consider The Audacity to Podcast to be a teaching podcast,
an informational podcast.
If you're doing a comedy podcast, you probably don't need to
reference old episodes much.
If you're doing a TV show for young podcast, again, you might not
be referencing old episodes specifically, like telling people you
need to go back and listen to this or this is relevant to this
episode, you might want to go listen to that.
But if you are doing something where you are frequently
referencing other episodes, either past episodes or episodes you
know are coming in the future, I think you should use episode
numbers for that because it will help your audience get to those
episodes faster without leaving their podcast app.
Then finally, moving on to number 3, use episode numbers for file
and folder organization.
This 1 is totally hidden to your audience, but it can really help
you with your organization, especially if you sort your files and
folders by date modified and then you modify something that's
much older, then it changes the sort order.
So if you number your files and folders according to an episode
number, that helps very easily order things sequentially.
Like for The Audacity to Podcast, I'm pretty sure that every
episode I've published that hasn't been some kind of special
announcement, I've used the format TAP and then a 3 digit number.
I also do that for the folders for each episode because I archive
everything for every episode of The Audacity to Podcast.
I save all of the master files and the final edits, and they're
in a folder.
I archive them to an external hard drive that gets backed up and
all of that.
And all of those folders are named the same way, t a p, and a 3
digit number.
Sometimes I get creative and you could consider this too, where
you could add a hyphen or an underscore and then add a keyword or
something else that describes the episode so you can remember
when you're looking at that list of files or folders, you can
remember what that episode was about.
But still following that pattern of using an episode number works
really well.
This can also work great if you use PodChapters, my other product
over at podchapters.com, where then if you follow a pattern for
your episodes, you can tell PodChapters to automatically apply a
preset to your files, and that would be automatically pre filling
certain ID 3 tags and setting certain transcription options and
more based on a file name pattern.
Like for the Audacity Podcast, I set it to whenever I upload a
file that starts with TAP in the filename to automatically apply
the preset for The Audacity to Podcast.
It's a nice time saving feature, if you edit multiple different
podcasts that then have their own patterns, like t a p and once
and t r n.
Those are all patterns I've used in other podcasts that I've
hosted.
So that would be really easy to upload that file and PodChapters
would automatically apply the correct preset to that.
And then the episode number helps distinguish which episode that
is and you can add to that after that.
But keeping that pattern and using the episode numbers is great
for file and folder organization even if you never ever speak the
episode to your audience.
A caution to this is if you prerecord a bunch of episodes in
advance, you've numbered them all, and then you change your mind
on their numbering.
Then you might have to decide, well, do you renumber the
episodes?
Or you could even consider, maybe don't number the episodes until
you actually publish them.
And that's when you name their folders based on the numbers and
such. That's up to you.
And it really doesn't affect your audience because it's how you
organize your own files.
But episode numbers could help with that.
Number 4, use episode numbers when you can't make better episode
URLs.
I use the example of episode 175 here where I know it was the
audacitytopodcast.com/ episode numbers that links to 175.
That's far easier for me to remember than saying the
audacitytopodcast.com/175 because I wouldn't have known it was
episode 175.
I had to look up the episode from its URL before I could know,
oh, yeah, that was episode 175.
Consider this especially for podcasts where it just doesn't make
sense to have a single keyword or a key term, a couple of words
as a URL because maybe you've covered multiple topics from the
podcast or it's just not something memorable for you or for your
audience.
But you do want to be able to give your audience a way to get
more information from that episode, like the notes, the
references, images, videos, downloads, whatever kind of stuff
that they will need and they need from a browser, then it might
make sense then to use the episode number in the URL, like the
audacity to podcast.com/170five.
But the caution on this, just like with the previous point, is if
you record several episodes in advance and you change the order
of those episodes and you have spoken that episode number inside
of that episode, that starts to break things and it might get a
little confusing, especially if you start out your episode saying
this is episode 501. And then maybe you realize, oh, no.
I'm changing the order of this actually gonna be 505.
But you say that in the episode, it starts to get confusing for
your audience, confusing for you. How do you manage that?
And this is a reason, and I'll get into this in more detail in my
next episode about when to not use episode numbers, but this is a
good reason to not speak the current episode's number within that
episode. And that could come to apply to the URLs as well.
Try to avoid having to speak the episode's number as its URL
because you might need to change that number, especially if you
record multiple episodes in advance or if you ever might have
some kind of episode that you want to squeeze in between other
episodes, and it's still a normal episode, so it might be
numbered the same.
So you don't have to do the thing like this is episode 500 A, and
then episode 500 b, or 500.5, or weird things like that, 499.5,
depending on which way you wanna look at it.
You don't have to do that kind of thing if you don't actually
include the episode number within its own episode.
But if you have to, you could use your episode numbers as an easy
way to make URLs for those episodes that you're recording for the
extra information to get from that episode.
But I think there are better ways to share that information
anyway.
I highly recommend a keyword based thing or point people to the
notes.
Even if your notes, and I don't recommend doing it this way, but
even if your notes are simply click here for the full notes, and
that takes them to the correct full URL.
That might display more prominently in the podcast apps, and it
might be something that it doesn't matter what that URL is as
long as it's there and they can tap on it or even link to it from
your chapters like that you add with podchapters.com.
And then number 5, use episode numbers correctly and efficiently
in episode titles.
There has been some misinformation out there about episode
numbers in titles because of some things that Apple has
communicated.
Apple has said do not put episode numbers in your episode titles.
But what they didn't do is clarify what they actually meant by
that. I know.
It sounds like they're saying don't put episode numbers in
episode titles, but this is gonna blow your mind.
They don't actually mean don't put episode numbers in your
episode titles.
What they meant and what they prefer is in the podcast app, Apple
Podcasts, and that whole Apple ecosystem.
They don't want episode numbers in the episode titles because
they've provided a specific different tag for putting your
episode number, and that's the iTunes colon episode tag.
And they've also provided to accompany and should go with this an
alternative title tag, which is iTunes colon title.
And that's where the episode title would go without the episode
number.
And the point of those tags is for them to be used together when
you need episode numbers or season numbers as well because there
is a season number tag. But the point is to separate the data.
So instead of having 2 or 3 of those pieces of data in the
episode title, they can be separated out and then displayed
optimally inside the podcast apps.
Like, if you look at The Audacity to Podcast inside Apple
Podcast, as long as I haven't broken something in my feed because
I experiment with things every now and then, you should see the
episode number displayed separately from the episode title in
Apple Podcasts because I have the title only in the iTunes title
tag and the episode number only in the iTunes episode tag.
But in the normal title tag, I've displayed both of them
together. So it's episode number period space episode title.
So if you're using a podcast app other than Apple Podcasts or
Pocket Casts or the few other apps that use these iTunes
namespace tags for the title and episode number, then you will
see the episode number displayed right there with the title.
That's because I'm doing something to support full compatibility
and fallback options with all of the podcast apps out there.
And unfortunately, some podcast hosting providers don't support
this properly or they complicate it.
And I've talked about this previously in an episode about the
sins your podcast hosting provider might be committing.
And 1 of those things is how they handle the episode numbers and
episode titles.
1 podcast hosting provider, for example, only presents 1 title
field for you in an episode number field, and that's fine.
That's the ideal way to do it.
But then they break that fallback normal title.
So in Apple Podcasts and Podcasts and a couple of other apps,
your episode number displays nicely and separately from your
title.
But in all the other podcast apps out there, your episode number
won't display at all because they're not supporting that fallback
and the full compatibility.
So that's why I'm saying use episode numbers correctly and
efficiently in your episode titles.
Go ahead and put them in the normal title tag if you can modify
separately the Apple or iTunes title and the Apple or iTunes
episode number.
Separate those things in those separate fields and write the full
title with the episode number in the normal field.
But maybe don't do this on the website itself.
And again, it depends.
Do the episode numbers really matter to your audience, especially
within that particular context?
Like in my case, once you're on my website, I think the episode
number doesn't matter at all.
So it's displayed separately on my website, not in the title.
It's displayed in some little meta information because of the
theme that I use for my website, which is powered by WordPress
still, and I use the second line theme.
So if you go to the audacitytopodcast.com/ second line, then you
can learn more about that theme and purchase it through my
affiliate link.
I recommend things I only believe in, and I use that theme
myself.
So a way to learn more about this and the very annoying details
of this is back in episode 359 or go to the
audacitytopodcast.com/numbers in titles.
Now you see what I did there?
I gave you a URL, but between the episode number and the URL, and
I gave you both, which 1 will make it easier for you to find that
episode without leaving your podcast app?
It's the episode number, isn't it? See?
That's going back to number 2.
If you share the episode number when referencing other episodes,
then make that episode number prominent so it's very easy for
your audience to find that other episode.
Watch for my next episode, which will be episode 421 when I'll
cover when to not use episode numbers.
But before I go, special thanks to Brian Inspooner from
toptieraudio.com who streamed 519 Satoshis to The Audacity to
Podcast in his listening. Thank you so much for that support.
If The Audacity to Podcast provides some value to you, would you
consider giving some value back? Whatever it's worth to you.
Go to the audacitytopodcast.com/ give back and give whatever
amount you feel it's worth to you.
If you feel like this advice is worth hundreds of dollars, oh,
I'd love it if you'd give hundreds of dollars.
If you felt like, that's worth a dollar. Feel free.
Give a dollar. Stream a dollar. Whatever.
The audacitytopodcast.com/ give back.
Now that I've given you some of the guts and taught you some of
the tools, it's time for you to go start and grow your own
podcast for passion and profit, and maybe even use episode
numbers again. I'm Daniel J. Lewis from theaudacitytopodcast.com.
Thanks for listening.